TIFF Report: The Duelist Review

Reader Comments

1. axleu 09/15/2005 @ 1:56pm

   “It is the definitive film for showing the weakness of Manga adapted to long-form feature film&”

   Since this movie isn’t adapted from a manga, I don’t see your point…

   So Oldboy sucks too, as Ichi the killer, and the Baby Cart serie, and Crying freeman,...??????

2. BtoFu 09/15/2005 @ 2:34pm

   I don’t think Kurt’s attacking the notion of Manga being made into live action as always being a bad thing, he’s pointing out that there is a definite weakness in carrying across a manga into feature length territory if they don’t do their homework. It works on the same principle as videogame to movie conversions or simply using source material that’s paper thin. If they don’t flesh it out it’ll seem stock amongst the library of typical manga’s.

3. Eight Rooks 09/15/2005 @ 3:12pm

   Yes, but there are a great many manga which are by no means paper-thin, so to imply the medium is intrinsically shallow is something of a mis-step IMO. Maybe videogames, but not so much comic books, not by any stretch of the imagination. There’s plenty of generic filler, I grant you that, but nothing like with videogames (which half the time have no more than a passing concern, if that, with trying to tell a story anyway). I don’t think the mere decision to try and adapt a manga to the big screen should necessarily carry any kind of cautionary note to it.

4. Kurt 09/15/2005 @ 3:19pm

   Manga...my biases are showing. If The Duelist is not adapted from MANGA (I thought it was from the Korean TV show Damo which I though twas from Manga, it is certainly going for that type of visual style.

   If I’m wrong, my mistake (I;ve not seen the show, and have no issue admitting my igorance, I’m taking the film on its own terms). but I do think there is an inherent adaptation problem that is not often overcome (See also CASSHERN).

5. Kurt 09/15/2005 @ 3:23pm

   Oldboy, Ichi and Baby Cart have entirely different agendas…

   Please get back to me after you have actually seen THE DUELIST. I’m more than happy to debate when we are both on the same page.

6. Eight Rooks 09/15/2005 @ 4:22pm

   Oh, like I said in one of the site’s other Duellist post, Damo is definitely a cartoon. I love it so far, though, I think it’s excellently done and has notably more subtlety than one might expect, yet it is unarguably going for colourful, melodramatic and exaggerated, I admit. Though again, both it and The Duelist were adapted from the same novel in Korea as far as I remember, unless X wants to correct me.

   I get what you’re saying, Kurt, I think, I just think it was maybe an unfortunate choice of words - though if you honestly think any cinematic adaptation of a manga carries risks because of the inherent weaknesses of the entire (or even of most of the) genre, then you simply haven’t read enough of them. However, if you meant people who want to adapt something seem all too ready sometimes to fall prey to the impulse to accentuate visual flair over narrative, then yes, I suppose I’d have to agree. I thought Casshern was bloody awful.

   Though yes, this is just stupid nitpicking really, since I haven’t seen the film yet. Here’s hoping I disagree with all of you, I suppose… seems all too possible I won’t, though. :(

7. x 09/15/2005 @ 4:53pm

   The original manhwa (Duelist and Damo are adapted from) is from the 70s, called ‘다모 남순이’ (Damo Nam-Soon), then it was re-issued in the 90s as ‘조선 여형사 다모’ (Female Inspector Damo in Joseon). The author Bang Hak-Gi is the same of the manhwa ‘바람의 파이터’ (Fighter in The Wind) was adapted from. The ‘Damo’ (茶母, not to be confused with the other meaning of Damo, 多毛 - hairy!) were a special unit of female inspectors, not part of Yangban families, who were generally used when sensitive female issues came up (inspecting a woman’s private room).

   As for the film, I saw the preview on arirang’s Screenflash and my spine was under intense stress: too much chilling. Soundtrack, visuals, movement, energy. Holy cow.

   I’ve seen all of Lee’s films, and got used to the critique he gets (abroad and at home, not much difference). Always all image and no story, but why do I love it so much?

   Ahn Sung-Gi just dropping everything and dancing in the rain (in Lee’s ‘Bitter & Sweet’) is one of Korean Cinema’s best moments ever, in my book.

8. LT Roberts 09/15/2005 @ 6:04pm

   I saw the ‘Duelist’ today and really enjoyed it. I have read the reviews here and although I tend to agree with much of what they say, I still came out liking the film. Not loving it, mind you, but certainly feeling that I had not wasted my time. Visually speaking, it is stunning. So much eye candy, I should have had the occular equivalent of a toothache afterward. YUM! As far as the story and acting, etc. I had heard that it was an adaptation from the animated show and manga so I forgave the strange bursts of cartoon style action (trying to be Kung Fu Hustle, but never really getting there) and outbursts of over the top performances (especially from Namsoon). It was trying its hardest to work in the same way that anime seems to be able to, but where I can swallow it (if I must) in most anime shows, I found it popped me out of the experience here. It just does not work (still trying to work out if it really did work in Chow’s ‘KFH’ too, but at least in that case, it was a straight-forward comedy). I tend to agree that a large part of the problem was that it bounced from being a romance to a period cop piece to a comedy and the transitions were always abrupt. That made for some moments where you totally became ‘aware’ of what the director was trying to achieve, instead of being carried through the story seamlessly. Still, I enjoyed it for what it was. It’s not Oscar material by any stretch - no House of Flying Daggers, but to be fair, I doubt it was ever trying to be that. Probably not a good comparison, as Duelist is not a drama. It’s a romp with a tragic love story theme at its centre - and it’s a good looking film to boot.

   As for Manga adaptations, I agree that a lot of the time it doesn’t work, but that doesn’t mean that it cannot happen. It, like comic movies, video games, and many other adaptations of that ilk, can be tricky and are not always perfectly done. However, it does not mean that the material should be abandoned. We just need to find more people that understand how it can be properly adapted. Look how long we’ve waited for N. American comics to be properly done (and still waiting on some)!

   Manga can be very, very good, as can anime, but there is just as much garbage out there too. It’s all about smart choices (as a consumer and a producer of films).

9. atreju 09/15/2005 @ 6:31pm

   I haven’t seen the movie myself (am planning to see it in Vancouver), but from what I gather from viewers’ reactions is that it failed not because it’s a manhwa adaptation, but more due to its (purposeful) lack of narrative, as you pointed out yourself in the above review. It seems for Lee the manhwa was merely a source of his visual material (plus maybe a minimum of the story), than something he sincerely tried to duplicate on screen.

   ps. Looks like that 18 guy is doing it again. What a coward to insult others in a language they don’t understand. Please behave yourself, will you?

10. Isao K 09/15/2005 @ 6:39pm

    Korean slang. That is so hardcore.

11. Todd Brown 09/15/2005 @ 6:46pm

    18nom’s been warned. If it happens again he will be banned. People can disagree and argue all they want, but when it slides into personal insults it crosses a line. We’ve never had a flame war here and I like it that way. Everybody play nice or don’t play at all.

12. Todd Brown 09/15/2005 @ 6:57pm

    Correction: he would’ve been warned if the email address provided worked. Consider this the official warning then.

13. x 09/15/2005 @ 7:28pm

    come on, 진짜 사나이 wear their real e-mail addresses on their sleeves. 혹시 겁나냐?

14. Eight Rooks 09/15/2005 @ 7:38pm

    I stand corrected. By the way, LT, the TV drama isn’t animated, it’s live-action (unless X wants to tell me the manhwa has been made into an animated show as well ).

15. x 09/15/2005 @ 7:55pm

    mmmmh… don’t know.

16. LT Roberts 09/15/2005 @ 8:23pm

    I stand corrected. I was going on what the 3 Korean older women sitting beside me (which was a lot of fun. They seemed to really enjoy the flick) were telling me about it. Albeit, it was broken english, so maybe I misunderstood.

17. Grady Hendrix 09/16/2005 @ 9:18am

    DUELIST is adapted from a Korean manhwa (manga, comic book, whatever) but it’s based on it very, very loosely.

    There also seems to be a huge difference in the reaction to the movie between men and women. At the end of the flick the women sitting behind me were crying and Director Lee was mobbed by about 40 Korean kids, mostly women, after the movie and they were all clamoring for his autograph.

    I’m posting more on it tomorrow over at Kaiju Shakedown because I couldn’t disagree more with Kurt’s assessment of the movie but I think one of the problems is of expectations. Director Lee could care less about how the movie is presented, “Action movie? Sure, that sells,&” and he’ll call the movie’s genre whatever looks the most marketable. But for him, he thinks of the movie more as a romance told with pictures and motion, not words and plot. Go in looking for an action movie - come out disappointed. Go in looking for an experiment - come out pretty happy. Or at least I did.

18. Kurt 09/16/2005 @ 10:27am

    Grady: You are spot on with the whole ‘expectations’ thing. Having followed the development of this film and salivating over the still pictures and the austere trailer for a while I was expecting something a little more along the lines of Zhang Yimou or Ang Lee. But I stand by the fact that the spastic shifts in tone are not good for the film and Lee Myung-se has to reign himself in as a director. He had good actors here, but his excesses killed the performances.

19. dimsum99 09/16/2005 @ 3:34pm

    I’m looking forward to seeing this film. I really enjoyed Lee’s Nowhere to Hide, with all its genre-hopping and spontaneity. For those who have seen both films, would it be safe to say that his latest adopts more or less a similar style?

    Either way, I’ll be sure to keep my expectations in check. At least from the stills and the reviews I’ve read, it promises to be a rich, visual experience. Now if it only would screen down here in SF.

20. x 09/16/2005 @ 4:34pm

    I wonder if releasing his older films would change reactions in the West. Most of the really negative reviews in Korea come from rather ‘populist’ reviewers, and the complaints are the same he’s been getting since 1988. But reading English reviews so far I get the sense people aren’t accustomed enough to his style (which hasn’t changed one bit since the beginning. Tell a story with images, rhythm and energy), so they expect something he’s never going to give them. He ain’t Zhang Yimou for sure. Maybe marketing is to blame here.

21. atreju 09/16/2005 @ 6:52pm

    Who do you mean by ‘populist’ reviewers? I think I’ve seen quite a few negative reviews from those who liked Nowhere To Hide..

22. orienkorean 09/16/2005 @ 9:34pm

    i’ve said it in the other Duelist review comments section and i’ll say it here. this movie is a terrible mess. in fact, i hate this movie. it was so unbearable and torturous to sit through. mind you, i loved Nowhere to Hide, but Duelist painfully bad. the only good thing i can say about this movie is that the costumes were nice and that’s it.

    i overheard some people in the audience, before the movie began, that they were expecting something like Hero or HoFD. boy, were they in for a rude awakening. and even after the film, i overheard some Koreans talking saying that they went in with really low expectations and found that the movie went lower than they expected.

    anyway, i wouldn’t mind if 18nom was banned from here. we could use more positive Korean or non-Korean presence on the board like myself cussing out others in a language they don’t understand really is cowardly and immature.

23. Kurt 09/17/2005 @ 2:10am

    X: You got me there, I never saw Nowhere to Hide, and the Duelist was my introduction to Lee Myung-se as a director. Conversations I’ve had with other festival goer were more familiar with Lee Myung-se’s work said this type of tone-shifting is not uncommon with him and he is trying to define it as his style. I suggest he move on, there is nothing to further develop here, these types of tonal shifts work for Stephen Chow (most recently in Kung Fu Hustle), but are out of place in The Duelist.

    And Yes, Marketing is to blame, the picture has been being sold as a poetic martial arts action picture...A far cry from KEYSTONE COPS which often takes over the film.

24. x 09/17/2005 @ 7:12am

    He’s not trying to define it as his style. IT IS his style, since Gagman, his first film. Nowhere To Hide was his welcome card to the International market, but the guy actually used abstract visuals to tell a romantic comedy (My Love, My Bride), a puppy love melodrama (First Love), a love affair (Their Last Love Affair), the struggles of Salarymen (Bitter & Sweet). Asking him to stop what he’s been doing for 20 years is, personally, a little too much. That would be like asking Wong Kar-Wai to stop doing films the way he does.

    Now the film can certainly suck, and I will say so when I review it if that’s the case, but if you don’t at least watch Nowhere to Hide, you will measure your reactions only on what people (marketing or not) told you to expect, which is bound to skew viewer’s expectations. The guy has never subscribed to conventional storytelling in the sense that he builds a basic narrative structure, develops characters, lets you in on their personality.. etc. Of course you have every right in the world to say that his way of approaching films doesn’t make for good filmmaking, from your point of view. But I bet if you give him another chance, and take a look at Nowhere To hide, you’ll begin to see patterns. You might still dislike his films, but the patterns will acquaint you with his modus operandi a little more. And now that they’re (finally) releasing Gagman, that’s another chance.

    Hope I’m not sounding like an ass, but you have to understand. I’ve seen the same exact criticism you wrote for films he made 10 years ago, so every time one of his films come out, things repeat in a vicious circle. It’s not your fault, not Lee’s… I guess the fact most of his work is impossible to access for an English speaking audience doesn’t give Lee much of a chance.

25. charis 09/17/2005 @ 7:21am

    As Grady points out, there is a huge difference in the reaction to the movie between men and women, even in Korea.

    To Lee Myung-se, dialogue means nothing. He talkes to audience through images. And female audience can interprete much better than male audience. They find loneliness in the male lead’s dance. They also understand why Namsoon and Sad eyes fall in love, even though there’s no clear explanation.

    I don’t see why it can not be called “a poetic martial arts action picture&”

    Aren’t there enough actions? Isn’t it martial arts that Namsoon, Sad eyes and detective Ahn perform? Isn’t it poetic?

26. atreju 09/17/2005 @ 4:25pm

    You also have to count for the fact that women are easier to fall for the pretty boy Kang Dong-Won (Sad Eye)

27. x 09/17/2005 @ 7:00pm

    like Ha Ji-Won ain’t pretty… ^_^

28. Kurt 09/17/2005 @ 10:40pm

    Whether I get it or not, it really doesn’t change the way I feel about the film. This debate has been most interesting, but I guess ultimately when you interpret a review or criticism you have to take into account where it is coming from. I’ll be the first to admit to being ignorant of the director. And I’m always willing to keep an open mind about such aesthetic. There are just too many other directors out there doing more interesting work than Lee Myung-se’s particular brand of genre-mashingband the Duelist doesn’t make me want to delve further into his backlog.
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