TIFF Report: Seven Swords Review

Reader Comments

1. critic 09/19/2005 @ 7:46am

   I normally respect everyone’s opinion, but here i must admit this is the worst point of view how to watch films i’ve ever read! Seriously, in any other reviews on this film there were at least distinct signs of an intelligence, unfortunately the only thing i find here is a cynicism of an highest order. Maybe in 10 years you’ll find a way how to review this film again and apologize for your infamous incompetent critiques like this. Anyway someone of your kind will thank you for this certainely.

2. Kurt 09/19/2005 @ 8:28am

   Everyone is a critic

3. nitty 09/19/2005 @ 11:14am

   Actually Kurt’s review seems dead on.If there’s one thing I learned hanging on the net its that Hark worshipers refuse to beleive he can make a bad film.I’ve totally given up discussing film with them.Most Hack(yes I spelled it intentionally that way)followers beleive Black Mask and Double Team will be considered classics some day.Whatever.

4. theredaction 09/19/2005 @ 11:57am

   I don’t agree with Kurt’s opinion at all because it’s just obviously prompting us to believe that he doesn’t know as much about the essence of wu xia pian, let alone the quality of filmmaking as other reviewers should have known when watching the film like this. I don’t refuse he can make a bad film, every director has always made a bad film to some extent, but simply this is not the case here. In fact, it’s a matter of preference what is a bad film and good film. Hmmm, nitty & Kurt have finally found each other after all these years?

5. Kurt 09/19/2005 @ 12:05pm

   I don’t profess to be an expert in the wu xia genre, but I’ve watch a crapload of these films from the 1960s up until now. I do actually think about film when I watch it, and I know what I like. I do not obsessively forgive or condemn filmmakers. But when they make shite, i call it shite.

   Maybe the rumoured 4 hour version, or re-editting, or whatever filmmaker tricks Hark has up his sleeve can save this film, it is a great story in principle, it is the current telling of that story which wrecks everything. The mediocre acting doesn’t help anything, and the less than stellar martial arts can’t really be considered a plus. (Some of the wire work in the film is atrocious...again editting may fix this, but I remain doubtful).

   If I were to brave the 4 hour version, I would want an opinion from someone who was not a HARK fanatic to give me the thumbs up. From the sounds of some people in the commenting threads, they are willing to consider anything the man touches to be gold, and sadly that just isn’t true.

6. theredaction 09/19/2005 @ 1:35pm

   Well, Kurt, it’s interesting, you’d have a really good point to this if you just accepted the fact that people who, as you say, are HARK fanatics had the reason to be such fanatics, these folks apparently can appreciate his art more than others and calling them fanatics if you ask me is just plain silly. What you’re implying here is that you’re actually more interested in an opinion of those who don’t like him. That’s a really great attitude from a reviewer, i tell you that.

7. theredaction 09/19/2005 @ 1:53pm

   Ok, i don’t want you to misunderstand me, you just can’t expect that everone will agree with you when it comes to this film. Because if you have been watching wu xia from the 60’s till now, then especially you should know better yourself that Hark’s films were never for everyone. And don’t forget that everyone’s entitled to his own opinion, and everyone would be right. There’s the reason why this guy is gaining more attention than before, believe me.

8. Kurt 09/19/2005 @ 4:34pm

   I’m not looking for agreement. Disagreement is what makes debate interesting...but we are at the point where you are saying good and I’m saying band, and well it’s just unproductive.

   And I was not implying that I’m more interested in an opinion of those who didn’t like the film, but rather someone who is looking at the film without the fanatacism. If they love the film, then that would get me interested in checkign out the 4 hour version over say, someone who thinks everything the man has ever done is as good as Kurosawa!

   Put it this way, are you going to ask the cheerleader advice on betting on a sports team...she will say her time every time...that is why she is a cheerleader.

   And you my fine friend seem to have a skirt on and pom poms in hand.

9. nitty 09/19/2005 @ 4:54pm

   The biggest problem I have with Hark fans is they will never admit he has made a bad film.Instead most just rant on with their film school 101 jargon about how it takes years to understand and appreciate Hark’s work.Bullshit.

   I for one am a huge Michael Mann fan but will gladly admit both The Keep and Ali were less than stellar.

   Oh by the way I’m a guy and into girls.Plus I think Kurt’s married

10. Kurt 09/19/2005 @ 6:07pm

    should have read “"she will say her team every time&”

    And yes nitty...Married...with Children…

11. Ali 09/19/2005 @ 10:00pm

    I’m not a fan or non-fan of Hark. I’m a fan of movies. I agree that the horse scene was unecessary, and there wasn’t a good introduction to each character. Perhaps there is a better story-telling in the 4hour version.

    I do have to disagree with the actors’ acting. In fact, I found the opposite. For Donnie Yen, I felt a powerful prescence, his voice deep and manly. His korean, perfect (my korean friend confirmed that) his eyes told his lines. Honglei Sun, also charming, witty, great role. As for Charlie, really getting into character and not caring whether her make-up was in place or not. Korean slave, even though she didn’t speak the dialogue she was able to make herself shine and be part of the group.

    It was not as bad as Kurt would put it, I have seen worse, much worse. But I must say I was not blown away. Hopefully the 4hour version will satisfy my questions and curiosity. As film critics and lovers, we need to give a chance to all. Sometimes we win and sometimes we loose.

12. Ben 09/20/2005 @ 12:25pm

    I agree that Seven Swords is a mess. It is so shattered that it only takes a hardcore Hark fan to play it again and again in his/her mind, using the tiny little details as a glue to paste pieces together. Sorry, no matter how hare I tried, the movie is still empty.

13. sid 09/21/2005 @ 3:52pm

    It’s not as perfect as his masterpiece The Legend Of Zu but still it’s a great film that won’t be forgotten that easily. It seems Tsui Hark is getting better with coming years. What the hell.

14. Todd 09/21/2005 @ 6:26pm

    You seriously just referred to The Legend of Zu as Tsui Hark’s masterpiece? Are you completely out of your mind? That film is a MESS ... Hark’s got a legitimate masterpiece or two under his belt but that certainly isn’t one of them ... at the time of its release it was the uncontested low point of Hark’s career ...

15. Kurt 09/21/2005 @ 8:03pm

    I bought the remake of Zu because Miramax was holding the film up, and I liked the trailers I had seen. Ouch! The disappointment was palpable after I finally popped the DVD in the drive and the incoherent (if oft-times pretty) mess that followed. I mean how can you screw up remaking/sequeling your own film? Hark managed to find a way.

16. sid 09/21/2005 @ 9:54pm

    Jesus, where are you from??? Are YOU completely out of your mind? and you now criticizing Seven Swords, oh my god. You may still don’t know, Legend Of Zu is considered widely as his true masterpiece (by those who “got&” this movie). A real philosophy ride into your mind, that movie is absolutely perfect! Btw, Tsui Hark has under his belt at least 10 masterpieces if not more (by his fans), thank you for your uneducated remarks, those people above are absolutely right, that’s just saying more about your knowledge of the challenging cinema or, say, Hark’s cinema. Did any one of you said Hark’s last ten years was hackery? yeah right, then just only in your head.

17. Kurt 09/21/2005 @ 10:04pm

    Actually, I’m from Canada. I’ve watch a fair number of films in my day as well. Obviously I don’t get it. But my argument is actually that there is not much to ‘get’.

    FYI, Grady Hendrix (over at Variety’s Asian Film Blog) had plenty of time to over-analyze the film while being bored by it’s meandering execution...His remarks are over at Kaiju Shakedown.

18. Pete 09/22/2005 @ 10:55pm

    sad state of martial arts films we’re in right now. I’m not just talking about the quality of the movies, I’m talking about the viewers too, in this specific instance. It’s kinda sad that movies that don’t look “wuxia&” as defined by tired images of swordsman doing wire ballet through the air in wide master shots in forests somewhere. It’s sad that the viewers these days are so conditioned by boring and pompous epics that, when a movie does not focus on its noble heroes and their noble ideals, but instead on the people the heroes come in contact with and interact with, it’s considered “meandering.&”

    I also disagree on just the fundamental observations of the film-- there are plenty of closeups (just rarely glamourized shots of the actors’ faces--they’re instead known by their swords) and about 90% of the film is handheld, yet the reviewer describes it as full of still medium shots, as if an Ozu film or something.

    I’m cynical of Tsui Hark too, I find his sense of humor to be utterly dumb and his preaching in the film to be quite obvious, but it’s odd to attack a martial art film simply because it lacks any of the cheese from other martial art/ war epics. The fights here are fresh and creative and look nothing like anything else (maybe with the exception of Tsui’s “The Blade") and they don’t rely on the balletic rhythmic exchanges that have dominated hong kong in the last 50 years. Instead they emphasize on strategy, the script, intricate wirework (not just two people flying next to each other anymore--they interact, their wires cross, in tiny spaces no less), and a lot of inventive weapons. It chooses to focus on different aspects of the village instead of the martial heroes. It stays away from overt sentimentality (aside from that horse thing) and focuses more on the quirks of the characters. It’s actually pushing wuxia towards a fresh direction as opposed to treading over the same territory with bigger budget (eg. crouching tiger et. al.). It’s the wuxia pian that Werner Herzog would’ve been proud of.

19. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 6:29am

    That doesn’t address the shoddy wire-work, messy choreography and sloppy story-telling...(which admittedly may have clouded me somewhat on other positive aspects of the film).

    However, I’ll take the direction Wong Kar Wai was heading in with Ashes of Time over the direction Hark is heading.  Just my opinion.

    Another thing...Criticizing the viewer (namely me) in this instance is a bit much considering this sentence: “It’s sad that the viewers these days are so conditioned by boring and pompous epics that, when a movie does not focus on its noble heroes and their noble ideals, but instead on the people&” Huh? Boring and pompous is exactly how I could describe Seven Swords at times...Especially the Korean slave-girl subplot...And for all its run-time, the film doesn’t focus on much at all, heroes, villagers, or otherwise....

20. sid 09/23/2005 @ 8:56am

    Thank you, this is enough from you: “However, I’ll take the direction Wong Kar Wai was heading in with Ashes of Time over the direction Hark is heading&”

    Congratulations, you’re officially in the minority with this little opinion in the world. Ashes of Time is a failure of a colossal size, undisputedly another WKW’s bad film, read something about this in a book on both of these artists, WKW admitted that he didn’t even know what he was doing at that time, at the end it just became a mess of a film, so Hark showed him how he should have made this kind of a film, HE BEAT HIM IN HIS OWN GAME, everyone knows that, it’s a fact that’d even WKW acknowledge. The Blade is mostly considered as one of the greatest movies ever made today. It’s The Seventh Seal of an action genre.

    Please don’t review any other Tsui Hark film in the future, thank you very much.

21. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 9:11am

    “Everyone Knows That...&” is perhaps the worst way to debate anything...I’ve often found that things that everyone agrees on are false (like say, the world being flat circa the middle ages, or that there are weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, or well, you get the idea...) That being said, if you want to play that silly game, at least be correct...Note that the wkw wu xia is sitting at 91% on Rotten Tomatoes (critics) 7.5/10 on IMDb (regular film viewers).

    Perhaps ‘everyone’ in your world is...YOU; and the maybe the Hark Fan Club? (I don’t mean to be bitter here, but asking the hard-core fans for criticism is often a moot exercise.)

    Sure Ashes plays more like an incoherent (this being the key word, and why it comes to mind when watching SS)dream-scape of a wu xia over a conventional narrative, but I believe that is wkw’s intent (since he does similar things with the dreamy atmosphere in IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE and 2046). The only thing that is bad about ASHES OF TIME is the atrocious treatment it has received on DVD with bad letterboxing, burned in and gramatically incorrect subs and an criminally cruel mistreatment of Chris Doyle’s fantastic cinematography.

    I don’t think Hark intended Seven Swords to be as abstract as the messy narrative indicates...But as you said...What do I know...The ‘majority’ usually knows what it’s talking about (Titanic/Independence Day/Phantom Menace ruling at the Box Office are of course the best of Cinema...)

    I’m trying really hard not to sound defensive here (and I am fully aware of the limits of text when it comes to this, and the reader will fill in tone as they see fit).

22. Marten 09/23/2005 @ 10:10am

    Wait....is Kurt being castigated for reviewing a movie negatively? Let’s not lose perspective of the fact that it’s just a one man’s opinion. And just like any other review you read by Maltin, Ebert, Variety, etc., you have the right to trust the reviewer’s sensibility or take his review with a grain of salt.

23. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 10:30am

    sid:

    Wait a while, the next time he’s gonna tell us that Hero has a better cinematography. Honestly, DOP’s work of Seven Swords is of such high standard easily found in films like Hidden Fortress or Seven Samurai. You really believe WKW took a better directon with Ashes of Time? OMG, how can be someone so blind is really beyond me. If he feels Seven Swords is boring then maybe he has boring life, i don’t know.

    Story-telling in SS i consider as one of the strong points of this film actually, the same editing. the audiences can witness a really unexpected turns in the flow of this filmmaking. Choreography is absolutely amazing, almost i’d say groundbreaking in the wu xia genre, wire-work is even made to the extent of surrealism which is also Hark’s trademark in each one of his films (especially those realistic ones) - it’s an aspect where usually you can ask yourself if you can believe your own eyes. Seven Swords is in fact truly sincere work of art, it doesn’t pretend to be anything else than what it is - nothing pompous or boring(?). The movie has or hasn’t dialogues in places you’d not expect - this is already well known method in Hark’s films, that relies on audiences imagination and acuity of intelligence. Or these volatile speeches that don’t focus on anything BUT their own soul and purpose in their life, there’re meanings that lots of you reviewers horribly missing, and i don’t know if it had meaning for me to recount them for you here. I saw this film already 3 times and i can assure you all that there’s NOTHING useless or redundant in the film - the whole story-telling is a main attraction here, it’s a labyrinth of complex characters, meanings, symbolism, ambiguity, and almost every character in the film represents fate, way of life of many contemporary people which Seven Samurai didn’t even succeed in this as well. Seven Samurai was trying to correspond with the time of its story, be it with characters, settings, weapons and so forth; whereas Seven Swords as a fictional genre turned-realistic addressing the dire situations, people’s issues of the present time. On the surface, it can seem to be a straight forward and shallow but at its heart it’s truly very deep and powerful film, i think you’re not even close to understand this film when there are waiting tens of films of SPL type for you to watch.

    In my view Seven Swords has an extremely timeless material rendered by highly timeless film-making that will without any doubt stand the test of time like Hark’s other earlier masterworks.

24. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 10:45am

    Believe me, Hark intended narrative the way what you see now. Don’t forget that he’s an prefectionist.

25. sid 09/23/2005 @ 10:59am

    Yes, you’re right, it turned out pretty silly the way how i wrote it because i wanted to be short and honest to you. But let’s take it the other road:

    Your words:

    “That being said, if you want to play that silly game, at least be correct...Note that the wkw wu xia is sitting at 91% on Rotten Tomatoes (critics) 7.5/10 on IMDb (regular film viewers)&”

    And you answered to yourself:

    “The ‘majority’ usually knows what it’s talking about (Titanic/Independence Day/Phantom Menace ruling at the Box Office are of course the best of Cinema...)&”

    Now i’m short and gave you my honest feelings.

26. Dana 09/23/2005 @ 11:26am

    It’d be funny to talk about some questionable ratings on IMDb or critics, when considering how many people saw The Blade and how many Ashes of Time. Despite the fact that i don’t remember at least one good criticism about AOT, if i’m not mistaken it’s seen in his fanbase as Wong Kar-Wai’s the worst film anyway. For a change it seems there’s gonna be also quite windy discussion with another WKW fanatic who can not admit he can make a bad film.

27. JackBurton 09/23/2005 @ 1:18pm

    Yeah, and since when WKW knows what’s Wuxia anyway, i wouldn’t even take seriously Ashes Of Time as a Wuxia of any kind. To put end to this here, in reference to Wuxia, Ang Lee, Zhang Yimou or WKW shouldn’t be even mentioned no matter how blind their popularity would increase. These guys are just following hackneyed art-house aesthetic rules how to conform to the tastes of simple-minded audience. But once T.Hark diverges from this typical pop culture mode known in his more successful films, everyone would tread him down to the ground and ten years later what we have there, people rediscovering this work with their love and hailing as one of the greatest of all times. This man is way ahead of his time and i just have to laugh that there’re still some ignorants who don’t see that.

28. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 1:21pm

    Sid: I believe you missed me being Ironic with those statements.(yes I know this type of irony/humour doesn’t ever come across in text, but I WAS being ironic when YOU brought up the fact that popular opinion is a debating point (and I even used the words SILLY GAME (because it is!) to underscore how useless that is as a line of logic (remember the examples, editted from your comment above, world=flat, WMDs in iraq was supposed to underscore the point...you missed it...)

    Leon: I know this is petty of me, but this did make me laugh “Don’t forget that he’s an prefectionist.&” Funny stuff. Anyway, many people agree (myself included) that Ashes of Tims is one of WKWs worst films, I’m just saying that a bad wkw is more interesting than most films anyway (wu xia or otherwise). Since I’m a WKW enthusiast as much as several of you all here are HARK enthusiasts, Dana’s point “For a change it seems there’s gonna be also quite windy discussion with another WKW fanatic who can not admit he can make a bad film.&” is perfectly valid.

    At this point however, there is nowhere for the conversation to go. Just flaming, i’m afraid. I hope this thread of comments has been more constructive than the polarizing myself with the Hark fans out there. But ultimately it is my opinion, and I hope I have backed up the reasons/context for it. I haven’t watched Hark’s films as much as some folks in this thread (or would I care to in the case of many of them), but I’ve seen most of them at least once. I also have a fairly wide film background so I’m looking at the film from within the genre but also in the context of world cinema. Lastly, I don’t know why I feel the need to defend myself in regards to this, but I appears that I am, and there you have it.

29. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 1:33pm

    Jack: “This man is way ahead of his time and i just have to laugh that there’re still some ignorants who don’t see that.

    &” Yea, it’s not like John Woo (in 1993) and Ringo Lam (in 1996) didn’t do over-the-top American Action flick (starring Van Dammme no less) BEFORE Mr. Hark (in 1998). And it’s not like Sergio Leone (in 1968) didn’t name is epic “Once Upon A Time in ...&”, or even Kurosawa/Sturges (1954/1960) “Seven ...&”

    Yea, the man is way ahead of his time*, I’ll give you that (*For those wondering I’m being sarcastic here, but it makes my point C’est Non?)

    And check out these three films...MASTERFUL CINEMA (see also *) at it’s finest...I’m sure you will all agree.

    Shu shan zheng zhuan (aka The Legend of Zu) (2001)

    Knock Off (1998)

    Double Team (1997)

    I’ll take Ashes of Time over Double Team thank you very much.

    /OK, that it, I will officially stop being petty here...But I’m a bit exasperated from the Hark Fanatics.

30. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 2:31pm

    I consciously, intentionally said that he’s a perfectionist just to know how much you know about Tsui Hark, and you know what, dear my friend, i got you, you’re absolutely wrong, he IS a perfectionist, believe me, really he is, you kinda embarrassed yourself i guess. Every student of his work should tell you that. What he’s doing is very much detailed and perfect in his own mind, only usually his audience don’t understand him.

    Someone pointed out this another fact (i’m amazed how many of others here making fun of you) - he’s ahead of his time. Again, you’re a bit wrong, it’s been already many times stated, he’s actually amazing example that proved over the last more than 20 years that he’s extremely ahead of his time filmmaker, his invented technique, ideas, genres, everything what he started 15, 20 years ago you can STILL see in Hong Kong filmmaking nowadays. His old movies are getting appreciated more now than at their release. On this topic i’m not gonna even discuss with you anymore.

    Masterful Cinema - you mean Legend Of Zu? then you’re right. Knock Off has some truly unprecedented incredible shots put on celluloid, but that’s all.

    Now i put it as you did: OK, that’s it, I will officially stop being petty here.

31. SWB 09/23/2005 @ 3:20pm

    I see there are here some connoisseurs on Tsui Hark. Kurt, the way i see it you should have handed over them reviewing of this film. We wouldn’t have here such flaming talkback.

32. pete 09/23/2005 @ 4:05pm

    ashes of time was an one-snobby-gimmick pony: wouldn’t it be great if kungfu masters from Louis Cha’s novel all talked like French New Wave dudes? That was pretty much it.

    I’ve calmed down a little bit and felt a little bit better about myself after reading the reviews again. I felt COOL for belonging to this clique of snobby viewers who “gets&” Tsui Hark. It’s kinda cool that the world misunderstands him, and that people won’t be overrating this film the way they did The House of Flying Dirk Digglers. It makes me feel previleged and snobby. It’s still a shame, but at least there are people who gets Tsui Hark, and not just middleclass fanboys obsessed with the Far East, or angst ridden dudes longing for some kinda Fight Club-esque escape, I saw people who could differentiate between good choreography and bland proper choreography, between intricate wirework and maggie cheung flying amongst pretty trees, between fresh storytelling and arbitrary narrative arcs. God bless you, fellow fans who are making Tsui Hark rich. We’re all in this together, against the tirades of the self-righteously ignorant, who label everything they don’t get as being “boring&” (that word has made a huge comeback in a big way into the recent pop film criticism vernacular) when they can’t back up what they’re saying. Hoorah for people who digs Tsui Hark!

33. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 4:53pm

    ‘Kurt, the way i see it you should have handed over them reviewing of this film. We wouldn’t have here such flaming talkback’

    Damn I thought I was through with this talkback, but I personally think the above review is more constructive than Fan-boy gushing.

    ‘I felt COOL for belonging to this clique of snobby viewers who “gets&” Tsui Hark.’ I hope that was sarcasm.

    Honestly there is nothing more to say. I’ve been brow-beaten on the subject of Hark, but tragically, not much said in this thread has increased my appreciation of Hark....

    (At no point have I been self-righteously ignorant, quite the contrary, many in the thread have been self-righteously pompous...but when we resort to name calling on the internet...well this site ends up more like an AICN talkback, and frankly, I think that is a bit sad.)

34. Geert Jan 09/23/2005 @ 5:14pm

    I haven’t seen Seven Swords and don’t know much about Tsui Hark, but the way you present yourselves makes it seem to me you are just a bunch of guys, perhaps even all from the same Tsui Hark forum, coming here to bash Kurt for writing a negative review. Using a lot of false arguments against Kurt personally instead of his arguments, and just talking trash about the films he does enjoy.

    Again: I haven’t seen Seven Swords, so for all I know you guys are right and it really is a masterpiece. But if it is, try to stick to arguments about the film itself, because you’re not convincing me this way.

35. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 6:27pm

    Geert Jan: Well, if you want to fully grasp a film or a book, it’s better to know more about its creator or director; if you wanna know why or what led some critic to write down such a review of the film, it’s better to know more about its reviewer. So what i figured out here that it’s better not to take “Kurt&” too seriously with his take on this film. I personally didn’t use any false arguments against “Kurt&” personally. Please don’t misinterepret what’s been written here, otherwise there’ll be even more flaming & heartburning. As i’m looking at this, there’s even no one who thought SS is a masterpiece. I have my own opinion (that “Kurt&” obviously doesn’s want to know) but i just rather wait another 10 years what the others will say. lol

    Kurt: that wasn’t a review of the FILM “pete“‘s written above! Funny, you’ll take anything constructive here but the review itself.

36. SWB 09/23/2005 @ 6:40pm

    I think pete was actually right, it’s a bit sad because in fact there was no one so ignorant and pompous as virtually Kurt himself. No offence, but when there’s someone who believes others were pompous he should read his own messages. As i see other posters at least knew what they were talking about.

37. YunLi 09/23/2005 @ 6:59pm

    I think lot of Hark’s fans now have the right to feel litle bit snobby and angry, especily for ignorance Tsui Hark is getting these days. I dont beleve any sarcasm in this at all.

38. Todd 09/23/2005 @ 8:17pm

    Heh, this is fun ... it’s just like when the web-monkey and I ripped on Episode Three. There are obviously people so invested in Hark’s work that any criticism of it can obviously only mean one thing: sheer and utter stupidity.

    People: Kurt ‘got’ Seven Swords. Mack ‘got’ Seven Swords. Grady over at Kaiju Shakedown ‘got’ Seven Swords. Believe me, all three of them are very, very familiar with Hark’s work. It’s just that none of them *liked* it. But nobody’s saying you can’t. Feel free to adore it all you want.

39. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 8:18pm

    My final word on this...**Beware text!** What I (or you or they) type is subject to the tone which the reader puts on the text (i.e. we are not face to face...so gesture and body language are lost in the telling)...This is typically what happens in internet forums such as this when things get emotional/personal, you (or I) may have the tendancy to read a textual respons or criticism in the worst possible light, not catching humor/sarcasm/etc. in the telling.

    I do personally believe that I’m not being pompous in this thread(and I may have also read several comments on the thread wrongly as well)...Fair enough.

40. x 09/23/2005 @ 9:23pm

    my view on this:

    re: wuxia

    Since Chor Yuen wonderfully adapted Gu Long novels (which are far, far more complicated than any material Tsui has been working with the last 10 years), wuxia has characteristically been a complicated affair. How can you piece together such intricacy on film, without losing the viewers? I’m in the smallest minority here, but I adore Ashes of Time. Not because it’s some kind of revisionist wuxia, breaking every single rule of the genre and even laughing in the face of Louis Cha’s novel. Of course if you want a good adaptation of the Condor Heroes, watch the TVB Serial… and god bless YesAsia if they finally release it on a decent DVD.

    I love Ashes because it has such incredible pathos and lyrical sadness, great actors, amazing cinematography… your usual Wong Kar-Wai, so to speak. Of course strictly as a wuxia it’ll never hold up, because it essentially never cared about being a wuxia… otherwise Wong would have never spent a few years shooting it.

    I think what the Tsui (please let’s use the guy’s family name ^_^) defenders fail to realize is that, unless you approach the film with a strong knowledge of what it’s based on (which is not of easy access in English, last I checked?), you’re bound to simply judge on its cinematic merits. I’ve only seen a few clips of Seven Swords, but while it looked interesting, it wasn’t really an awe inspiring experience. Of course I will give it a chance, but hey… Tsui has been making the same mistakes over and over since his last great film The Blade. You can come to me and say 蜀山 (Legend of the Zu Warriors - or whatever its english title is) from 82 is a classic, but the 2001 Legend of Zu fails as a basic cinematic product: bad acting, shitty dialogue, bad pacing. Unless those have become new rules of the wuxia genre, nobody who isn’t a wuxia diehard is going to appreciate it for some weird ass notion that it’s years ahead of its time as a wuxia. It’s still a bad film, deep down.

    Of course there’s been a general misunderstanding of what wuxia really is in the West, associating the beautiful visuals and Pop-Orientalist smarts of Zhang Yimou as the core of the genre, sort of using that as a paramount to compare everything to, when I’d rather see them rediscover some old Chor Yuen (NOT Chang Cheh. His films are fun, but he can’t direct to save his life) or King Hu. But still you can’t put Tsui’s films on a pedestal and defend them without end just because they’re hard to penetrate for a foreign audience.

    Which brings me to point number two. re: ganging up on Kurt

    I shouldn’t speak since I did defend Duelist (even If I only saw 20 minutes of clips of it) along vaguely similar tones, but I at least tried to back up the complaint with some info. You can’t just go to someone and say: ‘You don’t understand Tsui Hark. Die Pagan!’, without actually making him understand why you think he’s wrong, or whatever you people want to say.

    The only thing I know is that Tsui has been making bad films for almost a decade. He lost focus of what made him a leading figure in Hong Kong Cinema (Good lord, go watch his films from the early 80s and tell me the stuff he’s making now is better!), he started to believe his own bullshit, and essentially needs to relax, stop thinking about silly sequels or prequels. He needs to watch what’s going on in HK Cinema, take a look at the Infernal Affairs, the SPL and the Nite in Mongkok… and think about what he can do to counter that. Making a pretty film with pretty faces who can’t act (although Kim So-Yeon and Sun Honglei ARE often quite good), with choreography that might be ‘beyond its time’ but it looks like Bigfoot with diarrhea dancing to ‘The Blue Danube’ does not make for interesting filmmaking.

    There.

41. Kurt 09/23/2005 @ 9:39pm

    X, uh, thanks I think…

    on Chang Cheh...his films are pretty damn entertaining, most especially his 1968 classic, Hsia yu-yen (aka Golden Swallow).

42. x 09/23/2005 @ 9:58pm

    lol. I actually wanted to defend your position, but sleep deprivation and lack of coffee decreases my intellect by 15 to 70%.

    Short, pain-free re-phrase:

    Let’s not gang on him for the sake of defending the holy Tsui, without stating your point about why he’s ‘holy,’ without making easy generalizations about people’s tastes, or bringing up ‘secular truths’ of film quality, or lack thereof.

    Is that any better? ^_^

    I like Golden Swallow quite a bit, but I think Chang has made too much filler, couldn’t direct actors too well, and the machismo (as culturally topical as it might be) is eh… not a big fan of his films. Sure better than Lo Wei or similar, though.

43. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 10:59pm

    Well actually i was watching Tsui’s films already more than 20 years now and i’m very much sure he’s much better filmmaker than ever before, only not so commercially profitable. You can tell me what you want but his last 10 years became more experimenting and hence much more demanding for the contemporary audiences. And i have a feeling your tastes are very contemporary when you say that. The Legend Of Zu is more and more considered as one of his best movies, and imo it’s ten times better than his original classic from 1983, BTW, i’m not the only one. Hey, you can’t explain to anyone why some filmmaker is “holy&”, it’s impossible.

    Someone who thinks Legend Of Zu is a bad film shouldn’t even critizize his other works in my opinion. Well, at least you blindly defended “Kurt&” in this case, i take that.

    There

    “Let’s not gang on him for the sake of defending the holy Tsui, without stating your point about why he’s ‘holy,’ without making easy generalizations about people’s tastes, or bringing up ‘secular truths’ of film quality, or lack thereof.&”

    ??? I already stated my points, but only reasonable ones.

    That’s a good one: secular truths of film quality - Welcome to reality.

44. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 11:18pm

    Well actually i was watching Tsui’s films already more than 20 years now and i’m very much sure he’s much better filmmaker than ever before, only perhaps not so commercially profitable. You can tell me what you want but his last 10 years became more experimenting and hence much more demanding for the contemporary audiences. And i have a feeling your tastes are very contemporary judging by your talking about Tsui. The Legend Of Zu is more and more considered as one of his best movies, and imo it’s ten times better than his original classic from 1983, BTW, i’m not the only one.

    Someone who thinks Legend Of Zu is a bad film shouldn’t even critizize his other works in my opinion. Well, at least you blindly defended “Kurt&” in this case, i take that.

    There

    “Let’s not gang on him for the sake of defending the holy Tsui, without stating your point about why he’s ‘holy,’ without making easy generalizations about people’s tastes, or bringing up ‘secular truths’ of film quality, or lack thereof.&”

    ??? I already stated my points, but only reasonable ones. Anyhow i wouldn’t even have to do that, it’s like asking why Kubrick or Peckinpah is holy - as one user pointed out above - it could obviously mean only one thing: shreer and utter stupidity. Some people like these directors and some don’t. Welcome to reality. Just read something about him to know why “you want to call him holy&”. You also can’t explain to anyone why some filmmaker is “holy&”, it’s impossible.

    I’m wondering now why there are constantly coming up people who misinterpreting some of these posts.

45. x 09/23/2005 @ 11:26pm

    Tell me why ‘someone who criticizes Legend of Zu shouldn’t criticize his other works.’? I know a lot of people who love Tsui, not a single one of them even likes that film. When asked about their favorite Tsui films, most say Shanghai Blues, OUATIC, or The Blade. The majority of Chinese film criticism I read places much more importance on the advancements he made in the 80s with his films and productions. I haven’t heard one of them praise his later works for anything other than entertainment value (Time & Tide was admittedly pretty entertaining). ‘Experimenting’?

    Show me one reputable Chinese film critic who defended Legend of Zu, then let’s talk. Who are all these people who loved the film? WHERE are they? Because if you tell me ‘fans of Tsui Hark’, then sorry but just about every film ever made has some fan out there.

    You can’t possibly tell me that his ‘experimenting’ the last 10 years has been more important for HK Cinema and Tsui himself than the experiments he’s made with ‘We’re Going To Eat You’, ‘The Butterfly Murders’ ‘Dangerous Encounters...’ and following? That puts YOU, sir, as someone whose tastes are more contemporary than mine. Double Team experimented what? How bad of an actor Van Damme is? How many hairstyles Dennis Rodman can change?

    And how about that masterpiece of experimenting, Knock Off, with ROB FN SCHNEIDER.

    Let’s not kid ourselves. Show me all this praise for Zu we ‘don’t get’ then maybe people will treat as less than a cheerleader.

46. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 11:32pm

    “With choreography that might be ‘beyond its time’ but it looks like Bigfoot with diarrhea dancing to ‘The Blue Danube&”

    Really? That’s what you saw in the movie. That’s really sad. Your knowledge of secular truths of film quality telling us a lot on this thread.

47. x 09/23/2005 @ 11:35pm

    uh oh… now the hordes are after me. C’est la fin, mes amis…

48. Leon 09/23/2005 @ 11:52pm

    Okay, so you’re relying on critics’s opinions that much? i tell you this, find me one Japansese critic in the 50’s who’d easily defend Yojimbo or Seven Samurai. OR, find me one critic in the 70’s who praised Peckinpah’s works other than Wild Bunch or Ride The High Country. Just put up with the harsh fact that there are also some directors that need more time for their rightful recognizion. Even Kubrick didn’t get such praise in the 70s like nowadays.

    Maybe you’re still young and don’t “get&” what’s happening in the filmmaking world. Yes, that’s absolutely true, Knock Off, Double Team and following are all experiments for Tsui Hark who could learn from them.

    No, my tastes are NOT at all contemporary because i don’t watch LOTS of movies released nowadays, and especially after the fact that i admire Hark’s recent official flops. I don’t like so much his commercially successful films either.

49. Todd 09/24/2005 @ 3:47am

    Uh, Leon ... you were the one who said Legend of Zu is being praised as one of Hark’s best films. X is simply asking you to back up that claim because none of us see anyone other than you making that claim. You can’t just drop something like that into a vacuum. If you want to say that people have been praising the film, fine - back it up. It should be simple enough to do. And if you want to say that people have misunderstood the film, it’s easy enough to back that up as well. But you can’t have it both ways. Either its widely praised (which you’ve claimed) or its widely misunderstood and neglected (which you’ve also now claimed) but it can’t be both.

    I would suggest that the only thing Hark learned from Double Team and Knock Off was to not work in Hollywood and to hire better actors.

50. x 09/24/2005 @ 6:24am

    what Todd says.

    Just a note on film criticism. No, I don’t pay ‘that much attention’ to critics when it comes to judging how much I will like a film. But critics, particularly LOCAL critics who are more in tune (you’d think) with the cultural and social underpinnings that shape a film trend, are perhaps better suited to highlight what shapes those trends, the cultural and popular reasons behind that. Myself, as a mere movie fan and student of the game, I’m not ‘removed’ from the visceral enjoyment of filmmaking enough to be THAT objective. Of course a lot of critics (local or not) screw up that chance on a pretty consistent basis, simply being petty about what they don’t like and defending ad libidum what they do.

    But that’s my point. You can’t possibly compare reception of Ozu and Kurosawa in another era basically (no internet, little to no transnational crossover, festivals only then starting to warm to Asian films), of course there’s been a re-evaluation of their work now, but in today’s film world, 4-5 years is an eternity. Have people like Shu Kei, Stephen Teo, David Bordwell really mentioned Tsui’s latest 10 years as a perioud of glorious development in wuxia techniques? Simply hiding his decline behind a facade of ‘re-inventing wuxia’ or ‘making visionary work that is hard to access for the masses’ is a little childish.

    You know, maybe there’s a reason the masses don’t accept his changes? Cast better actors, let action choreographers’s vision integrate with what you want, without making a garbled mess that has no rhyme or reason. If you’re not there to tell a conventional three arc story, give me power. Give me intensity, give me excitement. Give me rhythm. Give me fire.

    NOT Leon Lai vapidly looking at the sky with his “Uh… Director Tsui… Cue? Errr… what was the line? Oh...&” expression.

51. JackBurton 09/24/2005 @ 10:25am

    You’re talking here as if Legend Of Zu, Time And Tide or Knock Off were total failures, in fact those 3 films have a quite good criticism, and i see a LOT of fans of these films now, only here just some of you guys trying to claim and delude us that Legend Of Zu being a total failure, huh??? are you serious? and now even Seven Swords. The good always overcomes bad in both cases, that’s how i see it, as a matter of fact that’s how i see nearly every Hark’s film. As i remember Butterfly Murders also was a total failure, it was pulled out of theatres just right after one week of screening. The same fate goes to We’re Going To Eat You, Zu:Warriors, Now they’re regarded as classics. Only junk like All The Wrong Clues(he won his first award as the best director for this) or Aces Go Places 3 were true hits for Tsui Hark that saved his career, today no one cares about these little films. I also strongly believe Legend Of Zu is one of if not his best film ever. Believe it or not it’s still regarded as a groundbreaking film for the HK industry!

52. x 09/24/2005 @ 11:12am

    By W.H.O.M.?

    Those old films’ lack of box office success has nothing to do with the success in his experimenting ways, which brought changes (positive or not, that’s up to the single viewer to decide) to HK Cinema which are, as you folks say, still felt today.

    Look, I enjoy the discussion as much as others do, but until you tell me where is all this praise for Legend of Zu, all that flashes in my mind is…

    Gimme a T, Gimme a S, Gimme a U...I....TSUI!

    And frankly, it’s Saturday, and I have better things to do than defend someone else’s position against the Three Knights Protecting the Holy Gray from the infidels. What the hell is this, Raiders of The Lost Ark?

53. x 09/24/2005 @ 11:14am

    grail, that is.

54. Hideyoshi 09/29/2005 @ 5:29pm

    i absolutley agree with this review. this movie is suck, especially the act and the story, not enoguh character build.

    but i like the action scene tough

55. pete 10/06/2005 @ 10:45pm

    aw is the fun dead? I come back from no internet and next thing I know the fun is dead.

    skimming over all these words and stuff, it made me cringe a few times to see how people have talked right over each other, one-dimensionalizing the hell of either camp. I’m in the Seven Swords is awesome camp, but no way near the Tsui-in-general is awesome camp. but the thing is, I really do think all the flaws people have attributed in this film are quite intentional. For example, the lack of a coherent dramatic arc. The film just seems so obvious to me that he’s sick of it and he’s interested in the little cutesy stories and moments, weird melodramatic romance, and abundant amount of sincerity.

    but the fights are so creative and gritty, they really award the people who choose to tune into the fights. if you really choose to pay attention, you’ll know exactly what’s going on in the fights and you can actually follow the sequences and the strategies and Tsui’s philosophy on fighting at any given moment. He’s not into exchanges and fencing in the traditional sense. Character’s strength and the qi of the swords...these fun abstract things movie characters often talk about but never really do (whenever they fight they always end up swashbuckling) find their way into this film, just as they found their way into The Blade. Did all of y’all Seven Swords haters hate The Blade and Time and Tide as well? I dunno about the rest of the fanboys here, I as a self-proclaimed non-fanboy am definitely not making up images to keep myself happy, and I definitely saw a movie with intricate wirework and choreography. Seriously, try to follow the edits and the pans and put together the fight scene cerebrally, this movie ain’t no joke.

    man, I think I’ve repeated what I’ve said three times now. woo whee.

56. Todd Brown 10/07/2005 @ 3:06pm

    Just came back to this thread after catching the multi-ID spamming on the Headspace one. A quick little IP search says Leon, SWB and YunLi are all the same person. Am I surprised? Not even a little. One person = one ID, people. Using multiple IDs to try and create the impression that you’re ‘winning’ an argument through force of numbers is nothing more than spam and will get you banned.

57. Kurt 10/07/2005 @ 10:05pm

    “Leon, SWB and YunLi are all the same person&”

    Amusing.

    Pete: Wow. I missed all that...While I can buy that Tsui is going for something different (a good thing), but I didn’t get ‘complex’ out of the fight-scenes, I got muddled. Lack of coherent dramatic arc can work, but not for me in this film…

    I guess we are re-treading though…

58. sean 10/08/2005 @ 2:42pm

    I thought Seven Swords was awesome. Fucking wicked movie. I’m no fan of this director either; i couldn’t sit though crappy garbage like Blade, Legend Zu, Time And Tide or Green Snake, truly horrible films one by one, only his stupid fanboys can blindingly extolling them as the best of this director which we all know is bullshit, these films are generally hated worldwide. Wake up people they’re total flops! Why are there so many fanboys still talking about such forgotten films i don’t know. I admit some folks here either overrating or underrating Seven Swords, but i thought it was an exceptionally great film and i don’t see what you have against it. It has an interesting choreography, stylish camera, cinematography, acting especially by Sun Hong-lei. I don’t know, you should probably all lighten up and not being so nit-pickicking to every released movie. I’m getting sick of such reviews.

59. Cal 06/05/2006 @ 12:38pm

    lol I know this is kind of late but I chanced by this discussion and I find the conversation quite amusing. Firstly, I’m not a fan of Hahk (as it should be spelled) at all. I hated Blade and Legend of Zu. The guy’s not entirely sane when it comes to his direction but if you’ve watched most of his movies- Seven Swords is really really good.

    Secondly, you MUST have some kind of mental deficiency if you bluntly word this movie as a complete mess. Do you KNOW what a complete mess is? Watch the movie Expect the Unexpected, or Running on Karma. I personally guarantee after sitting through those two, you’d have a clear and unfiltered understanding of the term, “complete mess&”.

    Yes, I admit this movie wasn’t entirely without “mess&”, but if you watch as many HK movies as you claim, you would know HK movies certainly don’t feel they need to be restricted by a typical Hollywood “good movie format&”. There may not be a meal scene, or family scene, or establishing shot- and if you’re super anal about shite like that, then perhaps that’s why you missed what was so enjoyable about the movie: the fighting.

    And yes, there have been better action sequences, but it’s certainly better than many many other acclaimed martial art films such as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or Ashes of Time. So what Seven Swords may lack in character development (which, if you average it out, isn’t bad at all- it’s just different than how film professors would time it), it makes up in its action sequences, which are well done because they’re conceivable. Bouncing around on trees or flying upwards indefinitely while spinning, does not necessarily make a good martial arts film. It is apparent that none of these other directors such as Ang Lee or WKW have any kind of idea what makes martial art films great. But Hahk does, which is why Once Upon a Time in China II is one of the best martial arts films ever made. So perhaps when he tries to sway to do something different, or something more, it ends up being questionably put together, or just extremely weird. If you don’t watch as many HK movies as I do, then you probably couldn’t see that Hahk weird is no where near Johnny To weird or Wong Jing weird. Also, if you don’t speak the language, then perhaps much of the desired experience is lost on the poor subtitling.

    Keep in mind that there are so many HK movies that have multiple personality disorders, and Seven Swords being one of them, it handles its disorder quite well.
    -----

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