As is bound to happen from time to time when you run a site devoted to fringe film we offended someone today. And they broke out the dreaded 'p' word. Now, I don't think the clip in question was even particularly close to the line marking off 'porn' from 'mainstream film' but I do appreciate the sentiment so rather than having people square off and glare at each other from their respective corners let's all sit down and talk about the issues here like adults, okay? Because, frankly, I don't really think people on either side of this argument generally give it enough thought ... here are some talking points to get you started.
1. What makes something pornographic? This is not as simple a question as it appears on the surface. Is it as simple as penetration equals porn or is there a certain type of intent required? How do films such as Fat Girl fit in? And is it only me that was confused that people keyed in on what I found a relatively inoffensive Japanese clip while a couple posts away was the trailer for Nordkraft which, to my mind, is far more explicit and which I've posted a handful of times now without anyone ever so much as blinking twice at it?
2. Having identified what makes something porn I want to know from the anti side what you feel are the problems with it and on the pro side what benefits it has. And to be right up front I don't consider 'It offends me' or 'It gives me wood' to be particularly useful answers. If you find it offensive I want to know why, what are the negative consequences. On the plus side ... well, riding a poorly tuned bus can do that so you're just going to have to try harder.
3. This quote from Battle in Heaven director Carlos Reygadas: "We are all naked when we go to the shower. At least twice or three times a day we are naked. And most of us have sex, once a week or more. It's a thing that occurs often. But it's not represented ever on film. So the normal thing to do would be to ask every other director why they don't have sex in their film and not ask me about it. I am the only normal one."
4. Whenever I talk pop culture with someone from Europe the conversation always eventually ends up at this point: how is it that North America is so hung up on sex - something that should be a positive force - while so blase at the insane amounts of violence - something always negative - pumped out in American films and television. Why are we more afraid of breasts than we are of guns?
Fire away ...
Stay the course, Todd. Last I checked, this was your website and some of us appreciate your open minded point of view. It's why I check this site for info about obscure films, and dont run off and read the latest gossip on Yahoo Movies.
It all really boils down to people being open minded to different types of film.I dont think pinku films will ever be popular in North America simply because of cultural differences.I've read interviews where pinku directors talked passionately about their films thus making me interested in seeking them out.I remember when I saw The Passion Of The Christ people walked out and felt like they had a religious experience.I on the other hand thought it was the ultimate horror/s&m;film.Here we had a guy getting tortured for a couple hours.Point being people will always be very opinionated when it comes to sex or violence. And Todd seeing how this is your website you must decide how much world cinema your willing to cover.Its one thing if you covered the porn films of Tera Patrick or Peter North.But to not discuss pinku films like the one's made by Nikkatsu studios in the 70's would be a shame.I'd like to believe TWITCH readers are intelligent enough to distinguish the difference between porn and films that just happen to be filled with sex.
and whoops, look at logboy go and say everything I wanted to four minutes prior, and better as always!
:D
one thing i didnt mention : i think isolating arguments out into posts like this, as well as (at least) potentially stopping themselves posting in relevant items by writers, actively gives people the impression they can write in and complain / moan about site content to todd - i mean, feel free to, but my impression is that todd has a shed load of email to deal with each day and i am not sure why people think that this is a service they pay for thats intended for as large a market as possible - this isnt mainstream in its content and we (if not many people do) intend to try and push ourselves and hope that others do the same and we can all improve / grow our knowledge and understanding together. so if you email in : youre keeping todd from his work for the sake of something that should be shared on the site and opened up for discussion amongst all of us, and your trying to essentially tailor the site to either yourself (so again, read what you want, dont read what you dont want) or for other people - and thats beyond self-censorship, its an attempt to limit others, dictate to them what they understand things to be, and control what they themselves can get from the site...
Yeh, logboy put it well. I think on a site that is the doorway to weird movies, the viewer needs to employ a fair degree of discretion. Boundries can be blurred sometimes, especially in experimental/alternative/underground films. I wouldn't expect Twitch to cover a pornographic feature (i.e an out and out skin flick) due to it's frankly generic nature. This is not a pornographic site after all. But, something like Thriller: A Cruel Picture which is an exloitation 'classic' and does feature pornographic moments, is probably quite apt for Twitch. As far as I have seen, a great deal of care has been taken with the content posted. But there is only so much you can do to protect the viewer with examples like the pinku movies, or something called 'Killer Pussy' for example, yet these films are perfectly apt for a site like Twitch. After all, I would hate to see the site curbed or dilluted in order to appeal more to family friendly audiences, when it is a site for 'out there' movies in the first instance. I personally have not seen anything on Twitch that I think has gone too far. I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect the readers to use their own discretion as I do mine.
From what I understand, it has been the pinku eiga related posts that have caused more of a stir than any of the more risque European/Latin film related posts.
I think it has little to do with what is considered "pornography" and just what people are comfortable with. I myself am sometimes taken aback by the promotional materials of pink films, AND I'M ACTUALLY FAMILIAR WITH THE GENRE!
I think there's just a frankness in Japanese film when it comes to sex that greatly unnerves most westerners. It lacks any sort of the supposed cultural context that sex/nudity is something taboo or risque, which is a cultural dynamic that most Western films play off of when we do make films that include sex/nudity.
Of course, if you delve deep enough into film theory, ALL MOVIES in which the actors are the main focus of the camera are pornographic (Memoirs of a Geisha anybody?).
It's pretty culturally myopic to say that its "okay" to stare at beautiful people on film for two hours, but it's "pornographic" to stare at naked people on screen for a few minutes.
On that note, it would be cool if Twitch could do an in-depth review of The Wayword Cloud DVD release.
Kurt and I both have copies of The Wayward Cloud, actually ... I'm not a big Tsai fan, so I've been leaving it to him, assuming he has time with the Toronto Film Fest consuming our time right now ... you'll certainly never look at watermelon the same way again ...
I generally think of "porn" as crap. No plot, no character development, soulless junk, celluloid Taco Bell. I realize that that's a statement that could encompass a great number of genres and movies that aren't technically porn. Porn just falls into the same bucket as grind house, Russ Meyer flicks, Corman, bad Italian cannibal movies, they are just out there to appeal to the lowest common denominator. God I love it all.
In all honesty I end up getting bored. There's only so much fleshy naughtiness that can go on. Why can't I just do that with my old lady instead of watching someone else do it? Now if the sex (like good violence) is: there to emphasize a point, etc., etc., etc. Not just humpin for humpin's sake.
If I need a porn fix I drift toward ero-guro and sundry artwork. If anyone can explain to me why eye-ball licking is erotic I would appreciate it.
Well I think part of it is the trashy, mindless, explotitative nature of that trailer and film. Now, that alone doesn't make it porn, (and I personally don't think it is, and don't mind it here at twitch) but I do think that that is one of the major elements that puts people off.
I mean, you can compare it with this trailer: http://www.twitchfilm.net/archives/002886.html
which is a whole hell of a lot more explicit, and yet also a whole hell of a lot more human too. I would definitely agree that the pinku film is much more pornographic then the later film, regardless of the fact it has less dick in it.
The Wayward Cloud review is coming...Probably Tuesday or Wednesday next week. I made the 'mistake' of watching Boe's Recontruction and it's been occupying my brain for the last couple days (WHAT A FANTASTIC FILM IT IS!) Anyway, planning on a complete viewing of Wayward Cloud Monday Night.