An Open Letter To Tim Burton

So I guess all wishes that Neilson NRG get ripped into by a couple of horny bulls should be posted here then?

This is beyond any words....If this article actually gets to Tim Burton I would love to hear his reply.

Irony can be so ironic sometimes. Goths banned from a Tim Burton movie is like somebody dressed as a Jedi being banned from a Star Wars film.

dont think tim visits the site. probably better said in a letter with a stamp on.

That's fucking amazing. I can't believe the stupid and ridiculous prejudices some people still insist on upholding. You guys handled that way better than I would have....

Wow... that's incredible. Kurt's comment is right on the money.

Are you implying that this is cause for celebration (i.e. a rare occurance), Opus?

/kidding

Tim may not read the site, but people from Warner Brothers certainly do, and they're the ones that paid NRG to run the screening ...

I am thoroughly apalled by this. I don't understand the Goth thing, but I don't judge people by how they dress. Besides, Dave's friends don't even look that extreme in those pictures. That's a shame, really.

i am glad warners read this stuff then.

warners : NRG are terrible at their job, or rather a specific individual or two cocked-up.

Hi Dave again,

I just wanted to encourage everyone to use the link above to Nielsen NRG to let them know you are A. Big Burton Fans and B. Upset.

Todd, where else can these good people write?

Make sure to keep it civil folks.

And thanks for the support

Dave

As the issue was purely with a Nielsen employee I'd limit any comments to them as far as writing in to complain to anybody.

The best thing people can do is spread the word around and make enough noise in the fan community that the powers that be are forced to take notice and realize that there's a problem in the way things were handled.

That guy from nielsen must think hes doing the door on studio 54. its a cinema for gods sake not some trendy niteclub. you should sue his ass

I sent the following email to info@nrg.com with "feedback" in the subject line:

I was horrified to read about the rude and inappropriate treatment that Dave and Harmony Canfield and Scott and Rachel Shaw were subjected to by attempting to see a preview of Tim Burton's film, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, to which they were invited to attend: http://www.twitchfilm.net/archives/002026.html

I live in San Francisco and while I do not dress goth, I have many friends who do and work at Fortune 500 companies such as eBay, Oracle, Intel, Sun and Google. I would hate to have to inform them that they may not be welcome at your events and have them spread the word within their internal corporate networks so that everyone they work with
knows that Nielsen NRGTM employees may engage in blatant discrimination towards them regarding their appearance. That just seems so unnecessary.

I must speculate on what would have happened if I had attended. I do have a preference for wearing black, as many women do, and have naturally, long, dark, curly hair that is often complimented as being "naturally goth" you could say. If I had the foresight to not put on too much black and maybe tie my hair up in a bun, perhaps then I would
be allowed into your events by your employee, Peter Larkin? I am curious as to how he defines what appearance or clothing is acceptable and/or required to sit in a dark theater and watch a movie.

I am sure you are very busy and do not have time or desire to micromanage every employee but an apology being made to the disrespected parties would be most welcome as would a press release noting that your employees have been informed on how to comply with the anti-discrimination policy that I'm sure you have in place.

Thanking you in advance for your consideration.

nice one OPUS 13! thats one well written email you've got there. lets hope they take notice.

opus13, make sure it was delivered. 2 of my emails have been returned.

I sent an email as well. If it is returned, I plan to send them the letter via certified mail. That way I can be sure that they receive it.

They do have a phone number on their site

Hey folks,

It's not your right to see the movie. It's a private event like the man stated.
There's no such thing as discrimination or segregration once you reach "private" property. I'm not saying it's right but just trying to throw in a reality check here that Pete had the right here to deny access as it says so on the pass and any movie preview pass in general. While Pete was definitely a "square" read your passes next time you'll find they always contain language to the effect of "Management reserves the right to not let you in."


In Pete's defense, there was something about your friends that sparked concern in his mind that they may cause some sort of hoohah. Approaching this as "They're fans!" gets you nowhere, you need to rather get the point across that when does dressing differently make one a problem?

By the way, any goth over the age of emotional puberty is SSCCARRREEEY. Any person over 30 who is not over the age of emotional puberty is SSCCARRERYYY.

"By the way, any goth over the age of emotional puberty is SSCCARRREEEY. Any person over 30 who is not over the age of emotional puberty is SSCCARRERYYY."



Silly me, I thought *that* was the very point of actually being/dressing goth...

Mr. Von Cleef, I think you are overlooking the point. THe fact is, they were discriminated against based on their appearance, and in any instance, in any circumstance, that is unacceptable, "private" or not.

BTW, everyone, I called the phone number and got alternate emails

jane.epstein@nrg.com
kevin.yoder@nrg.com

I was informed that these are Mr. Larkin's supervisors.

My email just bounced, I'll try sending it again to the addresses Tracy posted. Thanks Tracy!

Regarding Von Cleef, I'll make it easy for you.

A couple of guys are *invited* to attend a movie preview, had tickets handed to them directly, waited in line for over an hour with their spouses and then were kicked out because they looked too goth.

Now replace the word "goth" with "Jewish"
or "African American" - if that's not a definition of discrimination, I don't know what is.

Uh oh, Opus13, I think you're gonna get some heat for that one. My wife and I also dress goth outside of the office, but I think it's a real stretch to compare one's choice of wardrobe and makeup to one's race and heritage. It does suck that the Shaws were denied admittance, and I'm all for writing a complaint letter, but it looks like this issue's going to get way out of proportion pretty quickly. Now that the promotion company's contact info is posted, I fear that harrassing calls and email will only further convince Nielsen that goths = trouble.

This is really a shame. Sure, it was a free screening, but it sure looks like your friends were singled out and excluded just for the way they dressed.

At best, it's a really poor judgment call on the part of Mr. Larkin. Having been in that position before, I can sympathize -- it can be crazy pressure to deal with VIPs, plus swarms of "ordinary" people, and perhaps he had an eye out for any who he thought might cause trouble. Who knows? Maybe he'd had trouble before with goths, but that doesn't justify what he did. You have to give people the benefit of the doubt -- even if they're not VIPs, even if they didn't pay for their ticket.

It's easier to keep potential trouble-makers out of the theater, rather than trying to eject them later, but, boy, no matter what, it still sounds like a massive overreaction.

IMO, the real question is not, Why this isolated incident? The potentially more troubling question is, Has this happened elsewhere?

FWIW, I wouldn't lean on the idea of being "invited" too heavily. Recruiters for those kind of free screenings pass out invites to many more people than will fit in the theater to try and ensure 100% capacity, and the recruiters' payment depends on their success rate in filling the theater.

I certainly hope that no one is being harassing. My letter, like the one written by Opus, was civil and polite. The purpose of complaining is to bring this matter to the attention of the appropriate parties, not to constantly harass the company. I wrote one letter, and I do not plan to call or write again unless they require a repsonse from me. As Dave said, please keep it civil - being a jerk about things won't help the situation at all.

As far as whether or not the complaints are valid, I believe they are. For the reasons Peter stated (ie, whether it is an isolated incident) and on general principle. If the gentleman thought they were "trouble makers", there was a far better way to approach the situation than humiliating them in front of a large group of people.

Go cry about it, you baby.

that's productive. thanks for your input.

Irony can be so ironic sometimes. Goths banned from a Tim Burton movie is like somebody dressed as a Jedi being banned from a Star Wars film.

More like Hasidic Jews being banned from a performance of "Fiddler on the Roof" (they dress that way all the time and are not "in costume" just for the event.)

I'm really baffled by how someone could do this, but one theory, if it's not too wild, is that they were treating it as a children's film, and thought that Goths would scare little children, or little children's parents?



But that guy sounds not only bad at his job, but incredibly egotistical and rude. Did he really say it was HIS event? That's just SAD.

Hey MIke, I'm with you, I was just taking it to an extreme to illustrate that the motive of the action taken, regardless of how superficial or unimportant it may seem, is discrimination.

I should have clarified that in the post to begin with so my apologies, didn't mean to be needlessly inflammatory. Just attempting (and failing) to be clever. ;)

Wow...what a tale. And what a bummer, but props to Mr. Canfield for the manner in which he has handled his take on the matter.

I only have two major thoughts after reading the material. First, Mr. and Mrs. Shaw basically look like typical 21st Century Western World urban adults. Frankly, the dress and manners of a great many supposedly mainstream residents of central Indiana, where I am currently trapped, are things I find much more scary. And second, I think I'm going to be depressed for having read of this incident, because my wife, daughter, and son are big Depp fans, Burton fans, and Wonka fans, and we were rather looking forward to the altogether rare occurrence of spending coin for a night out at the first run of this upcoming film. Guess we'll now wait until it's on the bargain rental shelf at Blockbuster so we can ensure that the profit stream for the likes of NRG is well and properly minimized.

Aw, heck....I guess I feel a bit feisty tonight. Here's the email I just sent to Mr. Yoder at NRG:

Subject: Dress codes and damage control...

Oooops......

In the telco world where I've worked for the last fifteen years, we call it an 'ohnosecond'. That is,
that brief period of time during which you realize that you or a member or your team has just
made a Very Bad Mistake.

If your team is not taking steps to soothe the ruffled feathers over at Twitch Films, then you're not
reacting quickly enough to be in the business you're in. Here on Internet Time, the debacle
involving Mr. Canfield has now spread to MetaFilter, a rather large international blog, and you're
well on your way toward alienating a large chunk of the demographic you hope to lure to the
theaters for Mr. Burton's upcoming film.

Case in point: My entire family. A 44 year old networking professional, a 42 year old professional
music teacher, a 17 year old high school senior, and a 14 year old high school freshman. Who own
80% of Mr. Burton's films on either VHS or DVD (in some cases a new DVD replacing an old VHS),
and who also own or have seen in theater Mr. Depp's works.

Guess what new film will have to come around onto the bargain rental shelf at Blockbuster before
we see it?

Ah well, I assume that's okay with your Mr. Larkin. Because I just came home from my six figure
job today in the '92 Soldier Field Dead tie-dye that I wore along with my normal jeans. Not Goth - old
school hippie - but the idea's the same. Since 'our kind' don't fit the new party format for films
by Mr. Burton and Mr. Depp, I guess we'll just have to find other ways to spend our family entertainment
dollars.

-rdr

You all have freakishly shaped genitals and smell like rancid milk. That is all.

Oh my! will they kick us out of the theater for that?

Hey Dave,

That sucks and I can't imagine it's something Tim Burton himself would approve of.

Now, I have an idea for how you might be able to get your message to him. The guy who wrote the script for the new Charlie and the Chocolate Factory movie has a blog, and is very open to reader emails (although they're usually about screenwriting). Anyway, maybe you should send him an email.

His blog is here: http://johnaugust.com/

that situation is really a shame. however, after seeing what burton did to POTA i wouldn't pay to see his movies anymore and if someone gave me tickets to Charlie and then took them away i'd only be pissed by the fact that it was a personal assault on my physical appearance and/or lifestyle (which is pretty ironic since it's a "burton film"). oh well. maybe you guys will get showered with studio schwag for life for having to go through that ordeal.

Dave and Harmony, I'm so disappointed for you and your friends. You're so sweet! Hopefully some good will come out of this. Most people would have thought that your friends were probably extras from a random Burton film.

A little fun with google. I wanted to see if this story appeared anywhere else and googled
"Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" (exact quote) and "Tim Burton" (exact quote) and "Goth" (exact quote)
220 hits. None of them seemed to be about this fiasco.

However, I was inspired.

Googled "Director Tim Burton" and "Goth" (both exact quotes) and returned 1430 hits.

Googled "Tim Burton" and "Goth" (exact quotes) and returned 29,200 hits!

Of course, if you type in "Jesus" and "Linda Lovelace" you get about 19,900 hits, so I have no idea what any of this means.

I am certain however, we should be careful of judging the whole of NRG based on Pete's unfortunate and misguided prejudice. We would be considerably more appalled if all Goths were judged based on the horrific actions of Dylan Kliebold and Eric Harris. I don't boycott Goths because of Columbine.

I recognize that PR firms have a special responsibility, but Pete STILL is an individual working within the framework of NRG.

So let's kill Pete.

FYI: NRG's email bounced back.

who lives in a pineapple under the sea?

I'm not sure how this could be fixed, but it'd sure be a nice gesture to get a goths only advance screening in Chicago to make up for it.

"This IS a costumed event. You 'Larkin's' will have to leave."

Sheesh...by the time this is done they'll be spinning the incident as publicity FOR the film. no such thing as bad press, etc. Think they'll be disapointed if this ends up on CNN? Nope. Were they taking pictures of people on the way out? Post show interviews? I can't see what this guy was scared of.

While I agree the way they are dressed should not affect entrance to something like a screening, it’s a private event and people have the right to refuse you on that basis, same as any club, restaurant, art gallery, its part of life, I am surprised to see so much fuss about something that happens all the time. Personally I would not want to be at an “exclusive” event where people are judged like that anyway, who wants to be around stuck up people like that.

Man, I kind of assumed they were going to be dressed in PVC bondage gear, "Jesus is a cunt" t shirts and full on KISS make up - I could understand a little more not letting them in then (not saying it would be fair, but it's a kids movie). But they're dressed entirely inoffensively, and it's ridiculous they weren't allowed entry, regardless of whether or not it is the management's right to efuse.

By the way people. This was NOT a kid screening. They asked that no children be brought. It was for adults.

While I can understand the argument of "well he DOES have the right to refuse entry..."

One) They shouldn't have INVITED him then
2) The others who had checked for tickets said nothing and
3) -- How many night clubs or fancy restaurants that DO have dress codes provide the opportunity to rectify? Almost all of them. Need a jacket? *REALLY* fancy places will have jackets for you. Can't wear that hat/shoe/jacket? - So, you oblige, removed it, go leave 'it' in the car and then come back. I don't think a place has any right to skip the "request you remove something" phase and move straight onto "You! Get out!"

And frankly, like most people are saying, these people hardly look like those whacked out street punk goth types. It just looks like a differnt style than what's totally usual.

It must be different in the US, in the UK when the door says NO, there is no offer of free jackets etc. its leave or be made to leave and likely even if you returned in a change of clothing they would still say no having refused you entrance once. How ever I am in no way condoning the behaviour of those that turned them away, just pointing out that they are not obliged to let you in.

seems perfectly legal and fine. so you got rejected after you got invited, they had every right to do that. you simply should have dressed as they suggested to attend a private event. maybe next time you'll store some normal tshirts and jeans in the back of your car? ahaha!

Stonemonkey..
Yeah I understand that, however, the door inthis case, did invite them there. The door allowed them to be there for an hour, and the door checked them twice for cameras and such. That was all good. The problem was one guy who seemed to have a different opinion from everyone else that was working there that night.

And why that would stem over onto asking "undressed up" people who knew them to leave also doesn't make much sense.

I've worked with Nielsen/NRG before (I own a market research company). They've been assholes before. I'm not surprised that they damaged their research sample by turning away people they didn't like at the door. Fucking nuts.

lets not even get into the black/jewish/gay thing cause its not relevent here. these dudes waited in line for over an hour and were given passes. If mr larkin didnt like the look of them then he should have told them there was a dress code as soon as they arrived.

I suppose in case of ANY dress code/face control it must be mentioned BEFORE people come to show!

As a Goth well over 30 I say: It's good to be scary. Most of my Goth friends are over 30 and never had the "16 year old mentality". We are all professionals and hold decent jobs. It's a shame that a few faceless trolls have to be so rude. Anyway...

I'm sorry that you kids got turned away. That wasn't fair. I know it says 'management reserves the right' etc etc...but they were only singling out Goths. The tickets do not state what manner of dress is allowed and not allowed. If they did I'm sure they would have been more reserved with their attire. Although from the pics I saw they were EXTREMELY low key.

I did my part and wrote a civil letter to the company. I don't know if it will help but, I'm with you guys.

Goths are a bunch of fucking tossers. Those two twerps who wanted to see the movie should get a life instead of acting like moronic teenagers :)

Wow! The world is such a better place because of constructive commentary like yours. What makes you any better? What's your real name anyway? Or would you rather hide behind the fake one at the end of your enlightening missive. Scott and Rachel and I used ours.

Your comment is cowardly, and much more immature than choosing a style of dress or cultural affiliation.

you guys look like dorks ehehehehheheh you're OLD hehehehehehehehehh you listen to music for like people who have no friends hehehehehehh

heheheheheheheh I think hehehehehe I like this guy.

Rejecting some one, who is different than you and having no reason for it is just wrong.
They had no dress-code not notified.
"Goths are a bunch of fucking tossers."

Well too bad, so sad, that's life. Sure, you can dress like you want to but that doesn't mean everyone else has to like it. That was a private event and they have the right to let in whoever they want and to keep out whoever they want - just like we all do at our homes or businesses.

"Goth" is stupid....it's such a pathetic CRY for ATTENTION! HAAA!

Wow, this thread has really brought out the insensitive nutbars, who, thankfully, are usually silent around here...

If you've got nothing constructive to say...well...please refrain...

I'm waiting on the day that you're barred from public events due to the color of your skin, oh wait, that already happened, right?

Evil Evil Evil

Phil

Wow! These Goth-haters are really stupid. They're the type of people who 1, listen to posers like Justin Timberlake, or 2, think they're "gangsta." Pathetico, no? They should probably keep their lame, meaningless opinions to themselves, lest they make fools of themselves....Oops....Too late..Hehe

This is stupid from both sides from the moment labels are mentioned; do you really think a sweet fairytale such as Edward Scissorhands is goth? then you haven't even seen the movie; what need is there for you to label things, such as movies, and yourselves? have the guts to be you, the director isn't even a self labelled idiot such as yourselves, what's with the need of belonging to some ridiculous group just so you can now without problems what your features should be like instead of finding out yourself?

Goth isn't a real culture, is it??? It doesn't have hate crime legislation like African Americans do. If it was really a culture and not just a stupid youth trend people wouldn't be so discrimnatory. A goth over 30??? I've never seen one in my area so that must mean that goth is a teenybopper trend and nothing more. If you goths ever tried to sue anyone for a hate crime everyone involved in your case would laugh at you. Who could take a goth seriously??? Nothing about the culture is valid. It's a high school clique. Anything that happens with goths involved, like harrassment or abuse, is just seen as a simple dispute between kids. No adult would ever become a goth. Some adults are gothic but they get involved as teens and not as adults. Goth is a way for quiet kids who sit at the back of the classroom to gain some attention. Goth is the only way that a quiet kid can get noticed and they use it to their advantage. It's like saying "HEY, LOOK AT ME!!! I MIGHT NOT TALK MUCH BUT I EXIST!!! NOTICE ME!!!" Everybody wants a little attention but goths are starving for it. When they've had enough attention, they usually grow out of it. Adult goths are people who haven't yet grown out of an attention seeking phase.

You mean like people who go on and on denigrating something they know little about? Just want to clarify.

Your comments are way too far reaching. Can't wait til you're denied entrance to a public event (that you were invited to by the way)based on your appearance.

Whether Goth is a culture certainly isn't the issue here but your casual and ignorant dismissal of an entire group of people is.

Sorry I don't fit in to your world.

By the by I don't night club, dress ultra dark or wear makeup so this isn't about identifying myself as anything.

Goths are pathetic. They all defend their clique like it's not really a clique, but a CULTURE. Why? Why do they choose to suffer and be outcasts instead of just enjoying their youth? In the end it all comes down to being a pointless phase that they look back on and laugh about as adults. "Ha ha, I was Goth back in the day. I had green hair and everything. Boy am I glad I grew out of that rebellious youth phase", is what they're all gonna be saying. I don't understand why youth defend a bunch of shit for nothing. They stand up and fight for Goth acceptance and in the end they just say "Fuck it" and quit their little 'culture'. If it stuck with them I would understand and support their beliefs, even though I don't personally agree with them. But Goth is going nowhere, people are being quitters and dismissing all they once stood for as a phase once they hit a certain point in their life. Why? It must mean that Goth is nothing, or their would be an equal amount of adults as there are teens involved in it. It wouldn't be something to grow out of, but to take pride in and actually want to be Goth, regardless of age. If Goth is so important, so worthy of defending, why do they let people deny them access to a Tim Burton movie? Why don't they sue for discrimination? I'll tell you why, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Goth must somehow be irrelevant to the definition of 'culture'. Therefore, it's merely a clique and society just sees Goths as a label, a category of kid or immature adult who didn't get passed the whole 'rebellious' thing yet that all teens go through in some way or another. If Goth was important and protected by the government that asshole would have been afraid to deny those people access to a movie just because of the way they dressed. Goths would have power and wouldn't have to tolerate dirty looks from people in stores and there would also be less hate sites about them on the Internet, but that's not the way things are, is it? If I'm wrong then please correct me, but I doubt I'm wrong. If you fuck with a Goth you might get sued, but not for a hate crime, just a regular crime, regardless if you were 'prejudice' against Goths or not. I'm not just trying to start trouble here. I might just be an ignorant stupid bastard, and if I am I want someone to prove to me I'm wrong, and that discriminating against Goths is something that could qualify as a hate crime. Tell me that if I decide to harass a Goth that I would be penalized just as harshly as if I harassed some black guy because of the color of his skin. Tell me that Goths are a true minority protected by law, and I swear to God that I'll shut the fuck up forever about them, ok? I'm challenging you people to tell me everything I want to know, give me some proof that Goths are recognized in this country as important people.

I guess goths really are just worthless motherfuckers after all! Stupid teenagers, dressing funny to be part of a clique and NOT a culture! Grow the fuck up you morons! Everyone thinks you're immature moping around and trying to look 'scary' with your black clothes and makeup. You're never gonna get a job if you continue being rebellious, you gothic bastards! You're so fucking pretentious and everyone laughs at you because of it. Why can't you all just be normal? I'm serious, just conform to everyone else's tastes in clothing and stop being attention whores. You're not artistic, you're not special or important, you don't have above average intelligence so just face it, you're just the same as everyone else with or without this so-called fashion you've adopted. You're in the same boat as every other teenager who's struggling to find an identity. At least young goths are sort of cute, doing what teenagers do, stereotyping their personality by their choices of clothing and music, but once you become an adult this whole goth thing is no longer acceptable. It's a YOUTH SUBCULTURE, not an adult AND youth subculture. Adults will laugh at you even more than they laugh at teens who are into the goth thing if you're still gothic at 30. There's a time that comes in everyone's life when they start to realize that it's time to grow up and let go of childish things, and goth is no exception. And I hate this bullshit involving goths and religion. They all convert to Wicca or Neo-Paganism because it's the 'cool' thing to do. Religion is serious business but apparently goths don't see it that way. I don't believe in Christianity but it's a whole lot better than witchcraft! All those fucking gothics are trying to rebel against their Christian parents and they deserve a good ass kicking to set them straight! I am a man with standards and I would never let my kid become a goth, so other parents out there shouldn't either! Goths are disrespectful towards authority and society in general so DON'T ALLOW YOUR KID TO BE GOTHIC NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE OR SHE BEGS AND PLEADS AND SAYS THAT GOTH ISN'T WHAT YOU THINK IT IS! GOTH IS WRONG! GOTH IS STUPID! YOUR KID WILL TURN OUT PERFECT IF YOU DON'T ALLOW HIM TO JOIN A SUBCULTURE!

May I just comment on the fact that this 'chat' started up being about two nice, friendly-looking Goths being asked to leave a cinema screening by some useless WANKER! I, myself, have been asked to leave places like cinemas and theatres because I am white, very, very white, I am a woman (sexist basterds!) and because I am 'scary'. Even though I am a Goth, may I comment on the use of the capital 'G', I am still a Human Being, made from flesh and blood, we too have feelings and emotions and we find it offensive and upsetting to be asked to leave somewhere because we 'might scare and/or offend the patrons'. I am Roman Catholic, my perants reluctentedly have to accept me and my Gothic husband. So stop your offensive talk and get a life! I am also 40, I have been a Goth since I was 9! 31 years, I am never going to grow out of it, and in fact because of it my kids, all 6 of them, will never offend or bully a Goth, ever. Actaully two of my kids, Isabella and Richard II, are Goths themselves. Slagging us off is disrespectful, socailly and morally wrong.

I am 24 and Victorian Goth (yes, there are different types),Christian (no, I didn't convert, but my personal beliefs are constantly changing), graduated Cum Laude, have a good paying job in the media and have the preppist sister ever, half of her clothes come from A&F. Did that break any sterotypes out there? There are hateful and nice people in every interest in life, they can be in full leather or the current sweat pant with "PRINCESS" on the butt and flipflops. I can't understand how one can look an outfit you are wearing (outside of Nazi skinhead crap, of course) and decide automatically that that person is not worth the time to talk to.
I am sorry to hear about your situation, and hope you enjoyed the movie (which by the time of my post, is on DVD).

( . ) ( . )

Whoops, I forgot the cleavage!!!

( . )Y( . )

The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at
the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.
-- 1 Samuel 16:7

Well i know this might be a bit late but i just ran across this article.However i wish to express my most heartfelt condolencses to the couple.This is a sad story and one that repeats consistantly every where.It seems the last thrid of the comments have totaly missed the point being made.Also looking up the definition of goth it is a culture and regonized as one and it has subcultures within it it is especialy regonized by britain(its esiental birthplace).Lastly i am glad to see the parties involved handled it so well.

best wishes
Brian

I'm sure you're questioning my statements concerning Goth as a culture. Well, you must understand that I personally have listened to numerous Goths attempt to define what they actually consider to be a culture. And when you search "Goth Culture" results are not difficult to discover. I find it absurd! A complete disgrace to cultures which should otherwise feel dignified. 'Subculture' is an atrocious term as well. That simply can be defined as a culture within a dominant culture. Gypsies, Aborigines, and various African tribes can therefore be considered subcultures. Yet these kid cliques are perceived as something more significant than they actually are! It enrages me! Cultures should justify the fact that these adolescents IN A PHASE are not at all related. You can't automatically assume that my rants are vapid and stemming from nowhere. I simply wish to understand why these cultures are being disrespected and why others are blatantly disregarding the genuine interpretation of the word 'culture'. Cultures make outstanding contributions...what have GOTHS done? Or emos, punks, or other 'alternative' youth-oriented 'movements'? Nothing! They are entirely opposed to the traditional current of thought that is prevalent throughout many societies or cultures, if you will. They are COUNTERCULTURES! "Let's destroy the elaborate structure known as culture" they think to themselves as they giggle, incapable of recognizing that establishment is how society in general must thrive and how they are capable of thriving with accessible clothing, food, shelter-and not merely basic clothing! They have a 'Gothic' brand of clothing. Not merely food- marketed, produced, obtainable food such as Doritos and assorted garbage. Not merely shelter- rather, very ostentatious displays of middle class sumptuousness. Culture my ass. Rebellion is accurate, and although I don't wish to see youth oppressed simply because they were born later, and therefore I can identify with youth and understand why rebellion is important, they should at the very least be more original with what they're doing. I mean, like that hasn't been achieved by millions of youth across every developed nation! Oddly enough, it's still quite an effective strategy for angering parents and frightening those of an advanced age.

The thing about Goth that I sincerely despise is that whole "I am unique! I am important! I am intelligent! I am 2000 year old vampire!" attitude that they frequently display. Why can't 'Goths' accept the fact that they are not any more intelligent, any more important, any more insightful than 'average' teenagers. Probably the most 'intelligent' thing to come out of their mouths are "um, i liek, think bats r cool and stuff. oh ya, and vampires. LOL, how evar cud i forget taht!!!! Ppl laf @ mah cloths n call me stupid well i think thar stupid! fuck them! im in a vampyre cult!!! he he he tim burton is totally kewliez!" The IQ of a Goth is typically around 100, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Goths derive attention from their all-black wardrobes, in an attempt to be considered special by the 'mundanes.' But all they have is aesthetics, music, and childish Tim Burton films. There is no 'depth' to Goth, no significance. They are simply another brand of teenager. They don't even do anything to be recognized for besides attempting to shock people. I have more respect for the original Punk subculture than for these idiots known as Goths. At least punks had their politics and were quite intelligent (although not extremely). Goths just fail. Goth will die soon because it lacks foundation, dedicated adherents, and an actual purpose for continuing to thrive. Goths are those who want to discover what persecution feels like, and since they are upper middle-class white folks they could never have a reason to complain or to feel passionately about defending something. So they create something, but that passion eventually dies when they realize it was all an attempt to find an identity, just a stage of growing up, like all of the stages they've experienced previously.

Matt,

Goth is indeed a culture. It is simply that society does not recognize it as such because society prefers to suppress any group of people that oppose 'traditional' values.

As a result, Goth is considered adolescent-oriented, as adolescents possess a very low position in society, which is unfortunate. In reality, there are plenty of adult Gothic people, which would be apparent if only society were not attempting to subdue Goths in what happens to be the most effective manner possible.

Surely the majority would contend that youth are irresponsible and maintain irrational ideas (although I would contend otherwise), and therefore Goth becomes a less appealing ideology to those who profess their 'maturity' or are simply older.

So yes, this 'youth subculture' misconception is the result of society and it's inability to tolerate alternate opinions, belief systems, and ways of life. Since youth are frequently discriminated against by practically EVERYONE, to suggest that Goth is merely a product of adolescent rebellion is a method that will dissuade others from undergoing a change in appearance and actually being an adherent of the Gothic culture.

The media was mainly responsible for the perception of Goth as youthful, as they inaccurately condemned the Gothic culture, claiming that the Columbine murderers were influenced by it, although they certainly were not, as Goths are devoted to pacifism.

Afterwards, teenagers actually interpreted the media as being correct, and assumed that Goth would be a perfect way to challenge established norms or perhaps simply enjoyed the fact that they could induce a state of shock within the conservatives.

Rebellion is not at all ridiculous, yet to misrepresent an entire culture certainly is. I do hope this 'enlightens' those who decide to read my comment.

I agree with those who defend the fact that Goth is a culture. MATT, on the other hand, is the type of person who should be condemned for his obvious negative attitude toward Goths. Hatred toward ANYONE is completely unacceptable, whether it's Goths or a more mainstream group like Christians. There should be a law against Goth discrimination. It's obviously not just fashion and music, and those who think it is are NOT Gothic, I am sorry to say. Goth is a philosophy, belief system, and culture. I am unsure if those people who were discriminated against were truly Gothic, or simply claiming to be, but if they were then this is just horrible. And it's horrible anyway because appearance is just an absurd thing to discriminate against. What, does everyone have to look the same? If so, than this is a world I honestly would prefer not to live in. Yeah so basically Matt can most likely be considered one of those idiotic conservatives who enjoy bashing those who happen to have different beliefs and an appearance that doesn't fit into a mold that is recognized as 'proper.' So Goth is not a culture? Is that right, Matt? Give me a break! Just because it's not YOUR culture doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered a culture at all.

(.Y.)
BOOBS!

Yes, Goth is a culture! I posted here before! WEEEEEE! CHuchuchU! NUKKANUKKA! Michael Jackson!!!

Oh, and I was wondering..since so many of you have a preference for childish film productions by Tim Burton...Did any of you happen to catch the last episode of Dora the Explorer that has aired so far?

IF SO...COULD YOU EXPlAIN which places she explored and what people and/or animals she had encountered? What problems had occurred? Did Swiper appear?

Yes, thank you very much if you decide to inform me!!!!!!!!!!!

wow it is amazing what can happen to people and it is so hard to belev you look manguld the girl looks like a wich and the boy looks like a mangald zombe sory but it is true bye bye stef

A SUBCULTURE IS A CULTURE WITHIN A MORE DOMINANT CULTURE! THIS IS CORRECT!! THEREFORE SUBCULTURE AND CULTURE ARE BOTH APPROPRIATE TERMS FOR GOTH!!! BUT IF YOU ARE INTENDING TO RECEIVE LEGAL PROTECTION, CULTURE IS THE TERM THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO GO WITH!!!! BUT I DOUBT GOTHS POSSESS A FOUNDATION AND LEGITIMATE BELIEFS WHICH ARE REQUIRED FOR THE TERM 'CULTURE' TO APPLY!!!!! EVERYTHING PERTAINING TO THE GOTHIC CULTURE HAD PREVIOUSLY EXISTED AND CONTINUES TO EXIST WITHIN SOCIETY, GOTHS HAD SIMPLY RETAINED IT AS THEIR OWN AND EXAGGERATE IT...BUT YES, DRACULA AND SUCH...THEY ARE CULTURAL ICONS YOU FOOLS!!!!!!